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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>design meeting 2021-03-24 · t-lang · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/index.html">t-lang</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html">design meeting 2021-03-24</a></h3>

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<a name="231445881"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231445881" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231445881">(Mar 23 2021 at 10:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- tomorrow's design meeting is on the overall lang team structure. I've prepared a <a href="https://hackmd.io/7qfK5yA6Qaat_JTtXd7How?edit">document and meeting plan</a> here. It's not necessarily meant to be consumed in advance, as you'll see in the agenda, my plan is to start by walking over the material. During that time, folks can write down questions, and we'll discuss the most popular in meeting (and follow up on the others afterwards).</p>



<a name="231446265"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231446265" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231446265">(Mar 23 2021 at 10:09)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="224872">@rylev</span> <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span></p>



<a name="231483865"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231483865" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231483865">(Mar 23 2021 at 14:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>I put a note on how to get in to docs team (just help on PRs, they're desperate for help), but wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a group doc so i left it in a comment</p>



<a name="231495821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231495821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231495821">(Mar 23 2021 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="224471">@Lokathor</span> thanks! I think if you want to add any "questions" or notes at the end, that'd be welcome</p>



<a name="231670294"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670294" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670294">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> design meeting (on lang team procedures) starting now</p>



<a name="231670457"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670457" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670457">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm getting "The meeting has not started".</p>



<a name="231670560"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670560" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670560">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am also getting this</p>



<a name="231670635"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670635" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670635">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> ^</p>



<a name="231670672"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670672" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670672">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm having some technical difficulties :)</p>



<a name="231670706"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670706" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670706">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>not sure if that's related</p>



<a name="231670816"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670816" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670816">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok seems to work now</p>



<a name="231670936"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231670936" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231670936">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>in now</p>



<a name="231671066"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231671066" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231671066">(Mar 24 2021 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125270">@scottmcm</span> are you able to join today?</p>



<a name="231680978"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231680978" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231680978">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span>  I added these two sentences to the notes</p>
<ul>
<li>Want to be wary that we don't put too many expectations on the group of people, that can lead to collapse<br>
    * i.e., if we try to create too much structure up front</li>
<li>But if we call things a team, there is an expectation that I can get involved -- is that the case here?<br>
    * Is there something to get involved <em>in</em>?</li>
</ul>



<a name="231681026"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681026" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681026">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>do you think this kind of captures where we left it?</p>



<a name="231681201"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681201" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681201">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>one thing I wanted to ask you is that you said "if we call it a team, there is an expectation I can get involved", but that's not the case, but I want to dig a bit into that:</p>
<ul>
<li>expectation from and by whom?</li>
<li>why do we think that's not the case? </li>
</ul>
<p>Ability for folks to get involved seems like a low bar -- maybe it's a metter of setting and documentation expectations on <em>how</em> one gets involved.</p>



<a name="231681223"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681223" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681223">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that's a reasonable summary -- I think I'd say that the expectation is also that there's a lot of <em>value</em> being assigned to being a team member, and a pull-based team makes it harder to set minimum expectations.</p>



<a name="231681292"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681292" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681292">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., I think if someone shows up and starts fixing LLVm bugs and posting questions in <a class="stream" data-stream-id="187780" href="/#narrow/stream/187780-t-compiler.2Fwg-llvm">#t-compiler/wg-llvm</a>, they're getting involved; it may require a fair amount of "self starter" energy though</p>



<a name="231681374"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681374" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681374">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>this reminds me of something <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> was saying that I quite liked, that we should be focused on indicating what structures exist and accommodating the range of organization that exists</p>



<a name="231681543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681543">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>It's true that it's harder to set clear-ish expectations, but doesn't seem impossible.</p>



<a name="231681593"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681593" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681593">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>doesn't seem so different from earning your way onto e.g. compiler team or compiler contributors</p>



<a name="231681594"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681594" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681594">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>And when I say value that's both social capital but also monetary - like, it means a lot today to some extent, but I expect it to mean <em>even more</em> in the future to say "I'm a Rust team member" both in terms of what that means to others, but also the level of investment you can expect in yourself</p>



<a name="231681796"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681796" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681796">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree that making sure we have space for a pull-based group is right, and we don't necessarily need the <em>noun</em> to be different - I think the thing for me is I want to be really careful spinning up teams without being pretty clear on their expected working style (which can change over time, that's fine)</p>



<a name="231681870"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681870" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681870">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., if the borrow checker 'team' wanted to start up and start triaging issues, it may be that we want to say 'no that can't happen without lang team bandwidth'</p>



<a name="231681911"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231681911" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231681911">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>and that kind of structural insight is key to being able to make the experience work well for everyone, I think</p>



<a name="231682384"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682384" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682384">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I definitely don't think we should run off and spin up a lot of teams</p>



<a name="231682408"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682408" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682408">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would want to phase carefully into the structure over time</p>



<a name="231682423"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682423" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682423">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah I was a bit worried :)</p>



<a name="231682428"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682428" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682428">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I think identifying "area teams" as a possible thing might be worthwhile</p>



<a name="231682573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682573">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think part of my strong reaction was just that it <em>sounded</em> like an easy outcome of the meeting might be "let's spin up teams all over the place" which was really concerning :)</p>



<a name="231682611"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682611" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682611">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think identifying the folks who are key to getting work done in particular areas is indeed very worthwhile.</p>



<a name="231682729"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231682729" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231682729">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and if they're not on a team today - maybe trying to figure out why is helpful too)</p>



<a name="231683287"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231683287" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231683287">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>If this is primarily a distinction about <em>naming</em>, I do personally feel that documenting areas of expertise doesn't necessarily need to have the terminology of a "team". I do think "team" implies some degree of organizational structure beyond just "the set of people who know things in this area". This is not in any way a disagreement with the proposal of documenting areas of expertise; I think we should absolutely do that. It's 100% a naming bikeshed, related to associations with the <em>word</em> "team".</p>



<a name="231683454"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231683454" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231683454">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>(e.g. a "list of borrow checker experts" sounds like a group of people we can consult; a "borrow checker team" sounds like a set of people who work on the borrow checker in some sort of coordinated fashion.)</p>



<a name="231687078"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687078" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687078">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not <em>that</em> concerned about the names, but I do have the general feeling that having too many names isn't that useful, and that we should instead just become better at documenting what each team does and doesn't do</p>



<a name="231687090"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687090" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687090">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't love "list of borrowck experts" though</p>



<a name="231687129"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687129" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687129">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>for one thing, I want it to be documented, and I think it's a <em>good</em> exercise for us to think about path to membership</p>



<a name="231687145"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687145" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687145">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>even if that path is steep and rocky</p>



<a name="231687177"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687177" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687177">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>by documented I mean: I want it to be in the team repo and have aliases and things</p>



<a name="231687205"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687205" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687205">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think we should expect to have groups like that for every area though</p>



<a name="231687305"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687305" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687305">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think there's any reason to not have it be in the team repo as e.g. a ping group, which feels like roughly what we'd expect for a borrow checker experts list (just potentially with higher bar to entry).</p>



<a name="231687337"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231687337" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231687337">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>like, the aliases etc are not what makes a team</p>



<a name="231689915"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231689915" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231689915">(Mar 24 2021 at 18:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm going to think a bit about this. It may be something I defer from this RFC in particular and come back to. A ping group would be better than zero, but I'm not convinced that's what we want. I think we might want something more. I actually feel the same way about the ping groups for the compiler; I think we probably want all of them to be teams, and just have that every team has leads, members, and observers, where observers get notified when you write @ping team but are not <em>members</em> -- and anyone can add themselves as an observer. I can imagine us wanting to delegate decisions, etc.</p>



<a name="231690582"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231690582" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231690582">(Mar 24 2021 at 19:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>to be honest though I think a better thing than pivoting around the word team would be to discuss how we think these groups could function</p>



<a name="231690598"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231690598" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231690598">(Mar 24 2021 at 19:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>and what roles they may have</p>



<a name="231690611"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231690611" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231690611">(Mar 24 2021 at 19:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>that should drive the rest</p>



<a name="231691374"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231691374" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231691374">(Mar 24 2021 at 19:08)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24/near/231690582">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>to be honest though I think a better thing than pivoting around the word team would be to discuss how we think these groups could function</p>
</blockquote>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24/near/231690598">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>and what roles they may have</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Complete agreement. The responsibilities and expectations should drive the choice of terminology.</p>



<a name="231691437"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting%202021-03-24/near/231691437" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.202021-03-24.html#231691437">(Mar 24 2021 at 19:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>And the responsibilities and expectations are the thing we need to sort out.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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